03:38 <Hi!>Hello!
03:38 <Alex>Are you Jay?
Jay has arrived.
03:38 <Jay>Yes, I just changed my name
03:38 <Alex>Cool, let me know it it beeps when someone cites you, Jay.
03:39 <Jay>Yeah that just beeped at me
03:39 <Jay>Alex
03:39 <Alex>Cool!
03:39 <Alex>Thnax, anf you cite yourself?
03:39 <Jay>Jay
03:39 <Jay>Nothing
03:39 <Jay>:)
03:40 <Alex>Very good, thet tesing is succesful. Thank you very much :)
03:40 <Jay>Cool site :)
03:40 <Jay>I'm going browse through it
03:40 <Alex>Thanx, still to be finished.
03:40 <Alex>Data are static here, beta test.
03:41 <Jay>Berserk has an excellent rating !
03:41 <Jay>Keep this list :P
03:41 <Alex>It's quite strong :)
03:41 <Jay>I wish I could scroll the center, but not the chat
03:42 <Alex>I still should lock the chat window whle scrolling the rating list yes.
13:42 <Jay>HI!
14:25 <Alex>Hi Jay!
23:14 <Anonymous>Hey
Amanj has arrived.
23:14 <Amanj>I am here
23:14 <Anonymous>Hey.
Alex has arrived.
23:14 <Amanj>you can write something, lemme switch the tab
23:14 <Alex>If I cite your name it should play.
23:15 <Alex>Hi Amanj!
23:15 <Amanj>Oh, I was on the tab
23:15 <Amanj>can you do it again, lemme switch the tab
23:15 <Alex>Ok.
23:15 <Alex>Waiting...
23:15 <Alex>Ready to cite...
23:16 <Alex>How are you amanj? Testing case insensitiveness too :)
23:16 <Amanj>Yup
23:16 <Amanj>I heard a sound
23:16 <Amanj>but no notification bubble
23:16 <Alex>Good, thanx!
23:16 <Alex>No it's just a sound.
23:16 <Amanj>Cool then it is there
23:16 <Amanj>first time I didn't hear, because the laptop was on mute
23:17 <Amanj>cite me again, while I am on the tab
23:17 <Alex>Shouldn't change anything, Amanj.
23:17 <Amanj>Ah... I would have expected it ti be less loud :D
23:17 <Amanj>but yeah, it is working ;)
23:17 <Alex>It's supposed to wake sleepy programmers :)
23:17 <Amanj>hahaha
23:18 <Amanj>this is a very cute website
23:18 <Amanj>it is almost a crime
23:18 <Alex>On Garaham's chat this is the defect: I don't know if someone calls me.
23:18 <Amanj>it would have been even better, if you add vim-binding :D
23:18 <Amanj>agreed
23:19 <Amanj>I have vim-binding plugin, but some websites have it builtin in the webpage
23:19 <Alex>What is vim binding? I never used vim :(
23:19 <Amanj>Ah, so you press `j` to scroll down, and `l` to up
23:19 <Amanj>I mean `k` to up
23:20 <Amanj>I actually never use mouse on the browser, or at least very rarely
23:20 <Alex>Ah, very easy to implement then.
23:20 <Amanj>I have shortcut for every link
23:20 <Alex>Cursor keys do the job anyawy.
23:20 <Amanj>yup, but curser keys are faaaaaaar from the center line
23:20 <Alex>I shold bind upper menus to some keys then...
23:21 <Alex>You suggest I and M, right?
23:21 <Amanj>with `vimium` plugin, I press `f` all the links get a shortcut, so I can use them instead of clicking
23:21 <Amanj>ypu, shortcuts are awesome ;)
23:21 <Amanj>For `up` and `down`?
23:21 <Alex>Yes
23:21 <Amanj>I suggest `J` and `K`
23:21 <Amanj>those are standard
23:22 <Alex>Ah ok, I thought left and right, sorry.
23:22 <Alex>Like the joistick on keyboard in old programs...
23:22 <Amanj>actually, that is exactly why vim uses those keys
23:22 <Amanj>here are the actual ones, you can pick and choose if you want: https://blog.codepen.io/2014/02/21/vim-key-bindings/
23:22 <Amanj>not all of them apply to you
23:23 <Amanj>but it is a cheatsheet :)
23:23 <Alex>Ok I look for the vimium plugin. Do you think many programmers are happy with that?
23:23 <Amanj>Programmers yes, chess programmers maybe not
23:23 <Amanj>chess programmers are mostly windows programmers
23:24 <Amanj>and they are less familiar with Vim :D
23:24 <Alex>Ok.
23:24 <Amanj>just these two short keys
23:24 <Alex>Bu they use the mouse so they're not affected by that.
23:24 <Amanj>yup
23:24 <Amanj>and short cuts for the menue would be awesome
23:25 <Alex>C B A H would be ok?
23:25 <Amanj>Yup
23:25 <Amanj>if you underline the letter, then it would be super clear
23:26 <Alex>How would you click on an engine with keys?
23:26 <Amanj>Currently, I use vimium plugin
23:26 <Alex>If you ckick on it it shows its family and its results.
23:26 <Alex>With the plugin you get a sort of cursor to navigate the links?
23:26 <Amanj>Just clicked on Zahak with my plugins bindings
23:27 <Amanj>I press `F`
23:27 <Amanj>and all the links get a `shortcut`
23:27 <Amanj>and I type the shortcut
23:27 <Alex>So you can navigate this site entirely with keyboard?
23:27 <Amanj>yup
23:27 <Alex>Very cool!
23:27 <Alex>Thanx for the good suggestion!
23:28 <Amanj>You are welcome :)
23:28 <Alex>It surpased Combusken now, not yet reported here.
23:28 <Amanj>wow :)
23:28 <Amanj>super happy
23:28 <Amanj>that means Zahak is the best GoLang engine :D
23:29 <Amanj>that is an achievement :)
23:29 <Amanj>Did they play?
23:29 <Alex>As far as we know.
23:29 <Alex>There're stil unknow engines here and there :)
23:29 <Amanj>well, sure, but who cares about reality if the results show otherwise :D
23:29 <Alex>Correct. :)
23:30 <Amanj>Zahak will be in the next TCEC
23:30 <Amanj>this November :)
23:30 <Alex>3192 now, ELo isn't refresh here.
23:30 <Alex>As I said the update is experimental!
23:30 <Amanj>that is amazing :)
23:30 <Alex>There's some thing to finish before becoming "official".
23:31 <Alex>And at the moment I'm working on my engine, so some more time needed.
23:31 <Amanj>Understood :)
23:31 <Amanj>But this is an awesome thing really
23:31 <Alex>Thnak you very much.
23:32 <Alex>I used to have a ccrl like style before.
23:32 <Amanj>the website, or the tournament?
23:32 <Alex>But I think to something original and a terminal like site I this is.
23:32 <Alex>I think is.
23:32 <Amanj>ah
23:32 <Amanj>yeah, this is an awesome one really
23:33 <Amanj>and the style is timeless ;)
23:33 <Amanj>CCRL website looks outdated
23:33 <Amanj>but this one cannot look outdated even after 10 years
23:33 <Alex>We should also listen to non linux visitors :)
23:33 <Amanj>:D
23:33 <Amanj>I do use Mac too
23:33 <Amanj>so I am not only Linux
23:33 <Amanj>I just don't use Windows :D
23:34 <Alex>https://web.archive.org/web/20150215053244/http://e4e6.com/ratings.php
23:35 <Amanj>This one looks dope
23:35 <Amanj>the old one was boring
23:35 <Alex>:)
23:36 <Alex>Thank you Amanj for your tests!
23:36 <Amanj>I might restart ZaTour probably later
23:36 <Amanj>I'll inform you to send me a binary, if you think it works on Linux
23:37 <Amanj>so it can participate in one of the promotion leagues
23:37 <Alex>My engine?
23:38 <Amanj>Yup
23:38 <Amanj>ZaTour is designed for lower tier engiens
23:38 <Amanj>in fact, Zahak doesn't even qualify
23:38 <Amanj>:D
23:38 <Amanj>I need to change the rules to let Zahak play
23:39 <Alex>It's written in Delphi. I should set up a Linux machine and compile it there, there shouldn't be problems.
23:39 <Amanj>Cool :)
23:39 <Amanj>I can always test it, or even compile it if you tell me how :D
23:39 <Alex>"Lower tier" Protej?! Hey!
23:39 <Amanj>Well, I have engines at 1700 or less
23:39 <Amanj>the window was from 0 - 2800
23:40 <Amanj>with differen leauges and promotion steps
23:40 <Alex>I will surpass 2800 next year.
23:40 <Amanj>hopefully :)
23:40 <Alex>Yes :)
23:40 <Amanj>I like ZaTour, because it braodcasts slow games
23:40 <Amanj>25m+5 for example
23:41 <Amanj>so you can watch and see the issues and blindspots of the engine
23:41 <Alex>I'm cleaning/updating/rewrriting every single function now and I found a lot of "local" improvements.
23:41 <Amanj>cool cool :)
23:41 <Alex>Put all together it should get better.
23:41 <Amanj>I hope so :)
23:42 <Alex>I can't broadcast 1 minute games obviously but I show (not yet here) the game results in real time.
23:42 <Amanj>Yeah, I tried broadcasting 5 minute games
23:42 <Amanj>and it was a joke
23:43 <Amanj>nothing slower than 15 or maybe 10 makes sense
23:43 <Amanj>at the end it was like 10 moves in a blink of an eye
23:44 <Alex>In Lichess you can follow realtime bullet games.
23:45 <Amanj>:D
23:45 <Amanj>but I use `scp` to broadcast
23:45 <Amanj>with `cutechess` live PGN dumps
23:45 <Amanj>so it is terribly slow
23:46 <Alex>I can write my brodcaster, but I dont think bullet games would be interesting, and I don't know how much bandwith you need to serve more viewers.
23:47 <Amanj>I wouldn't be watching bullet games, TBH
23:47 <Amanj>I cannot follow
23:47 <Amanj>not at this level
23:48 <Alex>Of course.
23:48 <Amanj>any engine above 2000, is too good for me in blitz
23:48 <Amanj>I probably can beat some of them in slower TC, but that is because they are often stupid, not that I am strong
23:48 <Amanj>full of blind-spots
23:49 <Amanj>rustic for example, has nothing more than material counting
23:49 <Alex>Have you implemented limited elo level in Z.?
23:49 <Alex>levels
23:49 <Amanj>I had 3 nets for lower skill levels
23:49 <Amanj>then I changed the network format
23:49 <Amanj>so I need to retrain them
23:50 <Amanj>they are very small networks
23:50 <Amanj>so they don't hold much information
23:50 <Amanj>and will couple them with depth limit
23:50 <Amanj>in fact, it was Scally who trained them
23:50 <Amanj>https://github.com/amanjpro/zahak/pull/141
23:51 <Alex>I think it would be a useful feature, becuase more users could play with it, and even the author so it can test/debug while enjoing the playing phase :)
23:51 <Amanj>yup, that is what I will do for version 8.1
23:51 <Amanj>He promised to retrain the networks
23:51 <Amanj>and I will add some other goodies, like multi-pv and searchmoves
23:51 <Amanj>mostly to make the engine useful, not to make it strong
23:52 <Alex>I will do it with standard search and eval parameters, having no NN.
23:52 <Amanj>Ah, lemme show you something interesting
23:52 <Amanj>not sure if it worked or not
23:53 <Alex>Since I'm a long time player and teacher, I know how every level of players (below GM level) excatly reasons, thinks, evaluate pieces and so on.
23:53 <Amanj>oh cool
23:53 <Amanj>someone forked Zahak a while back
23:53 <Amanj>and added some sort of limit eval functionality to it
23:53 <Amanj>https://github.com/covrom/zahak/commits/master
23:54 <Amanj>the top 5 commits are from him
23:54 <Amanj>he calls it weak-delta or so
23:54 <Amanj>I believe it has to do with strength limit
23:54 <Amanj>havne't tested it
23:54 <Amanj>but this might be a stupid way to limit the strength
23:54 <Amanj>it doesn't forget about chess rules, but mis-reports the eval
23:56 <Amanj>Is Zahak over 3200 in the latest update?
23:56 <Alex>3190
23:56 <Amanj>:D
23:56 <Alex>After 400 games the ratings are very stable here.
23:56 <Amanj>the Chess god is trolling me
23:57 <Alex>The number of games seems slow, but it's compensated by the large numer of opponents.
23:57 <Amanj>so it is ahead of Combusken by one elo? :D
23:57 <Amanj>Well, it is really hard to make it much more than that
23:58 <Amanj>not every one has Lars' data center :D
23:58 <Alex>Lars tests are over thousand of games, but he plays 1000 vs the same opponents.
23:58 <Amanj>100 in longer TC
23:58 <Alex>In my long experience I found that it's better less games but vs more opponents.
23:58 <Amanj>problem with his TC is no increment
23:58 <Amanj>so timeout is a real problem
23:59 <Alex>I can't afford long time control with my hardware :)
23:59 <Amanj>I mean, shorter TC
23:59 <Amanj>in 1 minute, no increment Zahak times out almost half of the time :D
23:59 <Alex>3192/3189
23:59 <Alex>Ah yes 10" or so.
00:00 <Amanj>:)
00:00 <Alex>I think they're too fast, how deep can go the engine?
00:00 <Amanj>Ed also finds taht Zahak is ahead of Combusken
00:00 <Amanj>poor engines :(
00:01 <Alex>Are you testing all the reductions and other features that play a role at deeper depths? So I prefer longer time controls, if we can call lomger a 1 minute game :)
00:02 <Amanj>I usually test very fast TC first
00:02 <Amanj>if it passes then test longer TC
00:02 <Amanj>40s+0.4
00:02 <Alex>With +3 difference we can't say who's stronger, unless the error bar goes below 3 :)
00:02 <Amanj>that is the slow one
00:02 <Amanj>8+0.8 is the fast
00:02 <Amanj>true
00:03 <Amanj>I have a match running between them
00:03 <Alex>Ok, 8+8 for a first vague strength test.
00:03 <Amanj>it is +14 for Zahak, after 346 games, +/-28
00:03 <Amanj>yup
00:03 <Amanj>so I know if it is worth spending time or not
00:03 <Amanj>most of the patches fail the fast test
00:04 <Alex>But you don't know for sure.
00:04 <Alex>Maybe this patch fails at 8" but works much better at 1 hour.
00:05 <Alex>Suppose you create a super NN function that spends 1 second to get its fantastic results.
00:05 <Alex>1 second every move.
00:05 <Alex>In 1 hour game it will perform 4000, in 8 secs 0 :)
00:06 <Amanj>that is true
00:06 <Amanj>but I don't have unlimited time
00:06 <Amanj>I have patches that make a lot of sense, but fail the first test
00:07 <Alex>Do you measure functions timing with a profiler?
00:10 <Amanj>Mostly to debug speed related issues
00:10 <Amanj>but in search, most of my patches are pruning
00:10 <Amanj>which profiler doesn't help
00:10 <Alex>Ok.
00:11 <Amanj>Zahak is now on openbench
00:11 <Amanj>so I can test it much faster
00:11 <Amanj>and that is how I gained this massive strenght in this short time
00:11 <Amanj>from 7 to 8
00:11 <Alex>Yes.
Alex has arrived.
01:26 <Alex>j k added Amanj, but I have to disable them when you are writing into the chatbox :D
01:27 <Amanj>it works
01:27 <Amanj>issue is that, it was writing in the top textarea
01:27 <Amanj>not sure if this can be disabled
01:28 <Amanj>so by the end of the a few scroll-down scroll ups
01:28 <Amanj>the nickname became jkkjkjkjk :D
01:28 <Alex>Everything can be disabled :)
01:28 <Amanj>:)
02:21 <Anonymous>So, Zahak finished lower than Combusken :(
Amanj has arrived.
02:38 <Alex>At the moment.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
11:37 <Alex>Hi!
11:37 <Zixiao>hello
11:38 <Alex>There's also an alarm if someone writes your name.
11:38 <Alex>Hey Zixiao!
11:38 <Alex>Did it sound?
11:38 <Zixiao>haha, cool, yes
11:38 <Alex>:)
13:08 <Zixiao>need to leave for a while, back in a few hours
Alex has arrived.
21:24 <Pali>Hello hello!!
22:20 <Anonymous>Pali!
Alex has arrived.
17:09 <Anonymous>I'm happy to see 2.0 vs 1.0 was rather consistent with my own testing
17:09 <Pali>^^that's me
17:09 <Pali>It's a shame I got two major patches the day after 2.0 though :D
18:18 <Alex>Ready to release 2.1 then Pali?
19:09 <Pali>Probably not
19:09 <Pali>I'll take things slow
19:10 <Pali>I was just curious, which version of the binary are you running here?
22:29 <Alex>id name Black Marlin 2.0dev
22:30 <Alex>Are there different 2.0 versions?
22:31 <Alex>Oh, you mean the compile? sse42
10:13 <Anonymous>Ah nice
10:13 <Anonymous>I'm planning on writing explicit SIMD for future versions
Alex has arrived.
11:29 <Alex>Good.
20:16 <Pali>I must catch up to Mantissa
20:17 <Pali>get back to data generation :D
21:56 <Alex>Good luck :)
17:17 <Anonymous>New data worked way too well
17:18 <Anonymous>15 minutes of training on 20M FENs outperformed 20 hours on 100M
Alex has arrived.
17:19 <Alex>Hey Pali. How's that?
17:20 <Anonymous>Generated on latest BM :D
17:20 <Pali>2.9k Elo engine data vs 2.3k Elo engine data makes quite a bit of difference
17:20 <Pali>Although SSS, 300 games show +120 Elo over 2.0
17:26 <Pali>also using a GPU trainer which is around 2-3 times faster
17:37 <Alex>Ok. So are you going to surpass 3000?
17:37 <Alex>Or even 31001
17:37 <Alex>3100!
17:47 <Pali>31001 indeed
17:47 <Pali>surpass 3000 only for now
17:47 <Pali>I still got new nets/data coming in
18:25 <Alex>Looking forward to test the new version :)
19:30 <Pali>hmm development slowing down at +150 Elo STC
19:49 <Anonymous>STC?
Alex has arrived.
20:04 <Pali>8+0.08
20:04 <Pali>+150 Elo over 2.0
21:04 <Alex>It's a very good improvement, isn't it?
08:17 <Anonymous>Yep
08:17 <Pali>Although I kinda want +200 before the release now
08:24 <Pali>actually, a little more than +200 to guarantee 3.1k
08:24 <Pali>I think Elo difference won't be as much at longer TCs
14:03 <Alex>Who knows? How many games do you play at longer time controls? I think I never played a single one :)
15:07 <Anonymous>I play 1+0's just for fun
15:07 <Anonymous>I'll probably focus a little more on NNUE to be honest
15:07 <Pali>Try buckets again, they were an Elo gainer the last time
18:42 <Pali>I accidentally Ctrl+C'd the training
22:28 <Alex>All work wasted?
06:51 <Pali>only 4 hours
Ipmanchess has arrived.
09:21 <Ipmanchess>Hi guys..this looks great..Merry Christmas to all!
13:53 <Alex>Hi, merry Christmas!
14:39 <Ipmanchess>Alex are you the maintainer from this list and also are you the author of Blunder engine.
14:39 <Alex>Yes; no, I'm Protej's author.
14:40 <Ipmanchess>not hear from that one?
14:40 <Alex>Sure, why?
14:41 <Ipmanchess>Are you also on Talkchess
14:41 <Alex>Yes, I'm Brunetti.
14:41 <Ipmanchess>You know me or website?
14:42 <Alex>I know you by your name.
14:42 <Alex>You make Koivisto compiles and other enhanced compiles.
14:43 <Ipmanchess>hmm..that's just a little thing..i'm 43years into computer chess..and known as a very long time engine tester..
14:43 <Alex>Yeah, it was a simpification :)
14:44 <Ipmanchess>I see you know ccrl,cegt,fastGM but not Ipmanchess?
14:44 <Alex>I know it.
14:44 <Alex>Would you like it to be included in the Multilist?
14:45 <Ipmanchess>you are free to do what you want ;)
14:45 <Alex>Yes, but you are talking about your list and the ones I know, so... :)
14:46 <Ipmanchess>What you doing here is on Linux i think.. it just nice to see this different way!
14:47 <Alex>It's on Windows, Linux is only the inspiration for the webpage look.
14:47 <Ipmanchess>ahh okay.. still looking good..
14:48 <Alex>Anyway, it's just html+php, so the architecture is not important.
08:17 <Pali>BM 3.0 released :-)
08:39 <Alex>Cool Pali! Is it ok or the issues with Lars need a debug?
09:10 <Pali>All issues are solved
09:10 <Alex>Ok.
09:10 <Pali>The website is updates without needing to be refreshed right?
09:10 <Alex>Right.
09:10 <Pali>the website updates*
09:11 <Alex>Every around 4 minutes it updates everything.
09:11 <Alex>Just click on Hot List, then on Black Marlin 3.
09:11 <Pali>Nice, thanks
09:12 <Alex>Welcome.
15:47 <JohnMarlinslayer>Hi
02:26 <Alex>Hey
19:22 <JohnMarlinslayer>Hi
19:22 <JohnMarlinslayer>Again
15:45 <Alex>Hi.