BRUCE - Bullet Rating of UCI Consistent Engines

Category                   Engines       Games
Engine best version             70      59,411
Engine weaker version           11       5,971
Candidate for BRUCE list       128      48,028
Testing suspended               69      27,471
Not in BRUCE list               28      13,284
Latest Results
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RATING LIST - Complete List   Best Versions List   Alpha Global List   Hot List   Engine 
03:38 <Hi!>Hello!
03:38 <Alex>Are you Jay?
Jay has arrived.
03:38 <Jay>Yes, I just changed my name
03:38 <Alex>Cool, let me know it it beeps when someone cites you, Jay.
03:39 <Jay>Yeah that just beeped at me
03:39 <Jay>Alex
03:39 <Alex>Cool!
03:39 <Alex>Thnax, anf you cite yourself?
03:39 <Jay>Jay
03:39 <Jay>Nothing
03:39 <Jay>:)
03:40 <Alex>Very good, thet tesing is succesful. Thank you very much :)
03:40 <Jay>Cool site :)
03:40 <Jay>I'm going browse through it
03:40 <Alex>Thanx, still to be finished.
03:40 <Alex>Data are static here, beta test.
03:41 <Jay>Berserk has an excellent rating !
03:41 <Jay>Keep this list :P
03:41 <Alex>It's quite strong :)
03:41 <Jay>I wish I could scroll the center, but not the chat
03:42 <Alex>I still should lock the chat window whle scrolling the rating list yes.
13:42 <Jay>HI!
14:25 <Alex>Hi Jay!
23:14 <Anonymous>Hey
Amanj has arrived.
23:14 <Amanj>I am here
23:14 <Anonymous>Hey.
Alex has arrived.
23:14 <Amanj>you can write something, lemme switch the tab
23:14 <Alex>If I cite your name it should play.
23:15 <Alex>Hi Amanj!
23:15 <Amanj>Oh, I was on the tab
23:15 <Amanj>can you do it again, lemme switch the tab
23:15 <Alex>Ok.
23:15 <Alex>Waiting...
23:15 <Alex>Ready to cite...
23:16 <Alex>How are you amanj? Testing case insensitiveness too :)
23:16 <Amanj>Yup
23:16 <Amanj>I heard a sound
23:16 <Amanj>but no notification bubble
23:16 <Alex>Good, thanx!
23:16 <Alex>No it's just a sound.
23:16 <Amanj>Cool then it is there
23:16 <Amanj>first time I didn't hear, because the laptop was on mute
23:17 <Amanj>cite me again, while I am on the tab
23:17 <Alex>Shouldn't change anything, Amanj.
23:17 <Amanj>Ah... I would have expected it ti be less loud :D
23:17 <Amanj>but yeah, it is working ;)
23:17 <Alex>It's supposed to wake sleepy programmers :)
23:17 <Amanj>hahaha
23:18 <Amanj>this is a very cute website
23:18 <Amanj>it is almost a crime
23:18 <Alex>On Garaham's chat this is the defect: I don't know if someone calls me.
23:18 <Amanj>it would have been even better, if you add vim-binding :D
23:18 <Amanj>agreed
23:19 <Amanj>I have vim-binding plugin, but some websites have it builtin in the webpage
23:19 <Alex>What is vim binding? I never used vim :(
23:19 <Amanj>Ah, so you press `j` to scroll down, and `l` to up
23:19 <Amanj>I mean `k` to up
23:20 <Amanj>I actually never use mouse on the browser, or at least very rarely
23:20 <Alex>Ah, very easy to implement then.
23:20 <Amanj>I have shortcut for every link
23:20 <Alex>Cursor keys do the job anyawy.
23:20 <Amanj>yup, but curser keys are faaaaaaar from the center line
23:20 <Alex>I shold bind upper menus to some keys then...
23:21 <Alex>You suggest I and M, right?
23:21 <Amanj>with `vimium` plugin, I press `f` all the links get a shortcut, so I can use them instead of clicking
23:21 <Amanj>ypu, shortcuts are awesome ;)
23:21 <Amanj>For `up` and `down`?
23:21 <Alex>Yes
23:21 <Amanj>I suggest `J` and `K`
23:21 <Amanj>those are standard
23:22 <Alex>Ah ok, I thought left and right, sorry.
23:22 <Alex>Like the joistick on keyboard in old programs...
23:22 <Amanj>actually, that is exactly why vim uses those keys
23:22 <Amanj>here are the actual ones, you can pick and choose if you want: https://blog.codepen.io/2014/02/21/vim-key-bindings/
23:22 <Amanj>not all of them apply to you
23:23 <Amanj>but it is a cheatsheet :)
23:23 <Alex>Ok I look for the vimium plugin. Do you think many programmers are happy with that?
23:23 <Amanj>Programmers yes, chess programmers maybe not
23:23 <Amanj>chess programmers are mostly windows programmers
23:24 <Amanj>and they are less familiar with Vim :D
23:24 <Alex>Ok.
23:24 <Amanj>just these two short keys
23:24 <Alex>Bu they use the mouse so they're not affected by that.
23:24 <Amanj>yup
23:24 <Amanj>and short cuts for the menue would be awesome
23:25 <Alex>C B A H would be ok?
23:25 <Amanj>Yup
23:25 <Amanj>if you underline the letter, then it would be super clear
23:26 <Alex>How would you click on an engine with keys?
23:26 <Amanj>Currently, I use vimium plugin
23:26 <Alex>If you ckick on it it shows its family and its results.
23:26 <Alex>With the plugin you get a sort of cursor to navigate the links?
23:26 <Amanj>Just clicked on Zahak with my plugins bindings
23:27 <Amanj>I press `F`
23:27 <Amanj>and all the links get a `shortcut`
23:27 <Amanj>and I type the shortcut
23:27 <Alex>So you can navigate this site entirely with keyboard?
23:27 <Amanj>yup
23:27 <Alex>Very cool!
23:27 <Alex>Thanx for the good suggestion!
23:28 <Amanj>You are welcome :)
23:28 <Alex>It surpased Combusken now, not yet reported here.
23:28 <Amanj>wow :)
23:28 <Amanj>super happy
23:28 <Amanj>that means Zahak is the best GoLang engine :D
23:29 <Amanj>that is an achievement :)
23:29 <Amanj>Did they play?
23:29 <Alex>As far as we know.
23:29 <Alex>There're stil unknow engines here and there :)
23:29 <Amanj>well, sure, but who cares about reality if the results show otherwise :D
23:29 <Alex>Correct. :)
23:30 <Amanj>Zahak will be in the next TCEC
23:30 <Amanj>this November :)
23:30 <Alex>3192 now, ELo isn't refresh here.
23:30 <Alex>As I said the update is experimental!
23:30 <Amanj>that is amazing :)
23:30 <Alex>There's some thing to finish before becoming "official".
23:31 <Alex>And at the moment I'm working on my engine, so some more time needed.
23:31 <Amanj>Understood :)
23:31 <Amanj>But this is an awesome thing really
23:31 <Alex>Thnak you very much.
23:32 <Alex>I used to have a ccrl like style before.
23:32 <Amanj>the website, or the tournament?
23:32 <Alex>But I think to something original and a terminal like site I this is.
23:32 <Alex>I think is.
23:32 <Amanj>ah
23:32 <Amanj>yeah, this is an awesome one really
23:33 <Amanj>and the style is timeless ;)
23:33 <Amanj>CCRL website looks outdated
23:33 <Amanj>but this one cannot look outdated even after 10 years
23:33 <Alex>We should also listen to non linux visitors :)
23:33 <Amanj>:D
23:33 <Amanj>I do use Mac too
23:33 <Amanj>so I am not only Linux
23:33 <Amanj>I just don't use Windows :D
23:34 <Alex>https://web.archive.org/web/20150215053244/http://e4e6.com/ratings.php
23:35 <Amanj>This one looks dope
23:35 <Amanj>the old one was boring
23:35 <Alex>:)
23:36 <Alex>Thank you Amanj for your tests!
23:36 <Amanj>I might restart ZaTour probably later
23:36 <Amanj>I'll inform you to send me a binary, if you think it works on Linux
23:37 <Amanj>so it can participate in one of the promotion leagues
23:37 <Alex>My engine?
23:38 <Amanj>Yup
23:38 <Amanj>ZaTour is designed for lower tier engiens
23:38 <Amanj>in fact, Zahak doesn't even qualify
23:38 <Amanj>:D
23:38 <Amanj>I need to change the rules to let Zahak play
23:39 <Alex>It's written in Delphi. I should set up a Linux machine and compile it there, there shouldn't be problems.
23:39 <Amanj>Cool :)
23:39 <Amanj>I can always test it, or even compile it if you tell me how :D
23:39 <Alex>"Lower tier" Protej?! Hey!
23:39 <Amanj>Well, I have engines at 1700 or less
23:39 <Amanj>the window was from 0 - 2800
23:40 <Amanj>with differen leauges and promotion steps
23:40 <Alex>I will surpass 2800 next year.
23:40 <Amanj>hopefully :)
23:40 <Alex>Yes :)
23:40 <Amanj>I like ZaTour, because it braodcasts slow games
23:40 <Amanj>25m+5 for example
23:41 <Amanj>so you can watch and see the issues and blindspots of the engine
23:41 <Alex>I'm cleaning/updating/rewrriting every single function now and I found a lot of "local" improvements.
23:41 <Amanj>cool cool :)
23:41 <Alex>Put all together it should get better.
23:41 <Amanj>I hope so :)
23:42 <Alex>I can't broadcast 1 minute games obviously but I show (not yet here) the game results in real time.
23:42 <Amanj>Yeah, I tried broadcasting 5 minute games
23:42 <Amanj>and it was a joke
23:43 <Amanj>nothing slower than 15 or maybe 10 makes sense
23:43 <Amanj>at the end it was like 10 moves in a blink of an eye
23:44 <Alex>In Lichess you can follow realtime bullet games.
23:45 <Amanj>:D
23:45 <Amanj>but I use `scp` to broadcast
23:45 <Amanj>with `cutechess` live PGN dumps
23:45 <Amanj>so it is terribly slow
23:46 <Alex>I can write my brodcaster, but I dont think bullet games would be interesting, and I don't know how much bandwith you need to serve more viewers.
23:47 <Amanj>I wouldn't be watching bullet games, TBH
23:47 <Amanj>I cannot follow
23:47 <Amanj>not at this level
23:48 <Alex>Of course.
23:48 <Amanj>any engine above 2000, is too good for me in blitz
23:48 <Amanj>I probably can beat some of them in slower TC, but that is because they are often stupid, not that I am strong
23:48 <Amanj>full of blind-spots
23:49 <Amanj>rustic for example, has nothing more than material counting
23:49 <Alex>Have you implemented limited elo level in Z.?
23:49 <Alex>levels
23:49 <Amanj>I had 3 nets for lower skill levels
23:49 <Amanj>then I changed the network format
23:49 <Amanj>so I need to retrain them
23:50 <Amanj>they are very small networks
23:50 <Amanj>so they don't hold much information
23:50 <Amanj>and will couple them with depth limit
23:50 <Amanj>in fact, it was Scally who trained them
23:50 <Amanj>https://github.com/amanjpro/zahak/pull/141
23:51 <Alex>I think it would be a useful feature, becuase more users could play with it, and even the author so it can test/debug while enjoing the playing phase :)
23:51 <Amanj>yup, that is what I will do for version 8.1
23:51 <Amanj>He promised to retrain the networks
23:51 <Amanj>and I will add some other goodies, like multi-pv and searchmoves
23:51 <Amanj>mostly to make the engine useful, not to make it strong
23:52 <Alex>I will do it with standard search and eval parameters, having no NN.
23:52 <Amanj>Ah, lemme show you something interesting
23:52 <Amanj>not sure if it worked or not
23:53 <Alex>Since I'm a long time player and teacher, I know how every level of players (below GM level) excatly reasons, thinks, evaluate pieces and so on.
23:53 <Amanj>oh cool
23:53 <Amanj>someone forked Zahak a while back
23:53 <Amanj>and added some sort of limit eval functionality to it
23:53 <Amanj>https://github.com/covrom/zahak/commits/master
23:54 <Amanj>the top 5 commits are from him
23:54 <Amanj>he calls it weak-delta or so
23:54 <Amanj>I believe it has to do with strength limit
23:54 <Amanj>havne't tested it
23:54 <Amanj>but this might be a stupid way to limit the strength
23:54 <Amanj>it doesn't forget about chess rules, but mis-reports the eval
23:56 <Amanj>Is Zahak over 3200 in the latest update?
23:56 <Alex>3190
23:56 <Amanj>:D
23:56 <Alex>After 400 games the ratings are very stable here.
23:56 <Amanj>the Chess god is trolling me
23:57 <Alex>The number of games seems slow, but it's compensated by the large numer of opponents.
23:57 <Amanj>so it is ahead of Combusken by one elo? :D
23:57 <Amanj>Well, it is really hard to make it much more than that
23:58 <Amanj>not every one has Lars' data center :D
23:58 <Alex>Lars tests are over thousand of games, but he plays 1000 vs the same opponents.
23:58 <Amanj>100 in longer TC
23:58 <Alex>In my long experience I found that it's better less games but vs more opponents.
23:58 <Amanj>problem with his TC is no increment
23:58 <Amanj>so timeout is a real problem
23:59 <Alex>I can't afford long time control with my hardware :)
23:59 <Amanj>I mean, shorter TC
23:59 <Amanj>in 1 minute, no increment Zahak times out almost half of the time :D
23:59 <Alex>3192/3189
23:59 <Alex>Ah yes 10" or so.
00:00 <Amanj>:)
00:00 <Alex>I think they're too fast, how deep can go the engine?
00:00 <Amanj>Ed also finds taht Zahak is ahead of Combusken
00:00 <Amanj>poor engines :(
00:01 <Alex>Are you testing all the reductions and other features that play a role at deeper depths? So I prefer longer time controls, if we can call lomger a 1 minute game :)
00:02 <Amanj>I usually test very fast TC first
00:02 <Amanj>if it passes then test longer TC
00:02 <Amanj>40s+0.4
00:02 <Alex>With +3 difference we can't say who's stronger, unless the error bar goes below 3 :)
00:02 <Amanj>that is the slow one
00:02 <Amanj>8+0.8 is the fast
00:02 <Amanj>true
00:03 <Amanj>I have a match running between them
00:03 <Alex>Ok, 8+8 for a first vague strength test.
00:03 <Amanj>it is +14 for Zahak, after 346 games, +/-28
00:03 <Amanj>yup
00:03 <Amanj>so I know if it is worth spending time or not
00:03 <Amanj>most of the patches fail the fast test
00:04 <Alex>But you don't know for sure.
00:04 <Alex>Maybe this patch fails at 8" but works much better at 1 hour.
00:05 <Alex>Suppose you create a super NN function that spends 1 second to get its fantastic results.
00:05 <Alex>1 second every move.
00:05 <Alex>In 1 hour game it will perform 4000, in 8 secs 0 :)
00:06 <Amanj>that is true
00:06 <Amanj>but I don't have unlimited time
00:06 <Amanj>I have patches that make a lot of sense, but fail the first test
00:07 <Alex>Do you measure functions timing with a profiler?
00:10 <Amanj>Mostly to debug speed related issues
00:10 <Amanj>but in search, most of my patches are pruning
00:10 <Amanj>which profiler doesn't help
00:10 <Alex>Ok.
00:11 <Amanj>Zahak is now on openbench
00:11 <Amanj>so I can test it much faster
00:11 <Amanj>and that is how I gained this massive strenght in this short time
00:11 <Amanj>from 7 to 8
00:11 <Alex>Yes.
Alex has arrived.
01:26 <Alex>j k added Amanj, but I have to disable them when you are writing into the chatbox :D
01:27 <Amanj>it works
01:27 <Amanj>issue is that, it was writing in the top textarea
01:27 <Amanj>not sure if this can be disabled
01:28 <Amanj>so by the end of the a few scroll-down scroll ups
01:28 <Amanj>the nickname became jkkjkjkjk :D
01:28 <Alex>Everything can be disabled :)
01:28 <Amanj>:)
02:21 <Anonymous>So, Zahak finished lower than Combusken :(
Amanj has arrived.
02:38 <Alex>At the moment.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
Alex has arrived.
11:37 <Alex>Hi!
11:37 <Zixiao>hello
11:38 <Alex>There's also an alarm if someone writes your name.
11:38 <Alex>Hey Zixiao!
11:38 <Alex>Did it sound?
11:38 <Zixiao>haha, cool, yes
11:38 <Alex>:)
13:08 <Zixiao>need to leave for a while, back in a few hours